While I hadn't heard of a smudging before, I wasn't saying that she had made a move for an exorcism. I was just saying that she might be putting the cart before the horse.



She was around, as she saw it. And, actually, it isn't that uncommon. Stuff falls. Gravity does that.



Because stuff falling over isn't a remarkable occurrence.



How did you know that the things falling off your shelves were the result of supernatural presence? Just because it hadn't happened before doesn't mean that it was impossible.



I don't doubt that she believes it. I am only pointing out that belief does not equal truth.



What makes you think that I haven't done research? Come to that, what am I supposed to research? Every site that I find that has discussions like this has different resources that they consider canon. There isn't a coherent paranormal dictionary to study.

As I said, I am not an expert on the paranormal, all I know I have learn from reading books and researching online, but from everything I've read I've never heard of a ghosts posessing someone like that. Its true ghosts can jump inside someone's body, but the way she described it makes me think its more demonic. That he had contorted his body, that he was speaking in a weird voice, those both sound demonic to me. Although one thing that gives me pause is that everything I've read about demons, their name is their most sacred thing and its what priests use to drive them out. I've heard of demons refusing to give their names, but I've never heard of one make up a name like George. With a name like George, it sounds more like a spirit, but everything else sounds demonic. Like I said before I really don't know a ton on this matter, this is just what I have experienced.
"Humans are believed to have no control over possession by demon. In case of ghosts, it is believed that humans, psychics or certain other medium, can channel out ghost‘s influence from human body."
http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-ghosts-and-demons/

Also here is a very interesting article about demons and demonic hauntings. Check it out and see if it matchs up with what happened to you. http://www.liparanormalinvestigators.com/demonology.shtml

Is it possible your phone is broken? The same thing happened to me as well. I would be home all night and my phone wouldn't ring once when it was on the highest ringer setting, and then before I went to bed I would have like 3 voicemails totally out of the blue. But my cellphone was broken. I bought a new one and it stopped doing that. I haven't had a problem since.

Honestly to me this sounds a little bit like a poltergeist.

""Poltergeist" is a German word meaning "noisy spirit." Current research indicates, however, that poltergeist activity may have nothing to do with ghosts or spirits. Since the activity seems to center around an individual, it is believed that it is caused by the subconscious mind of that individual. It is, in effect, psychokinetic activity. The individual is often under emotional, psychological or physical stress (even going through puberty). Effects can include rappings on walls and floors, the physical movement of objects, effects on lights and other electric appliances - even the manifestation of physical phenomena." http://paranormal.about.com/cs/ghosthunting/f/blfaqs_ghosts02.htm

So... ghosts can't possess people, but they can possess people? And what about this story made you think it was demonic rather than a normal ghost? How can you tell the difference?



What keeps a ghost possessor from doing this?



Didn't you just say that priests can drive out demonic possession?



I had that too, but it turned out to be from a low battery rather than the phone being broken. It still does that sometimes; when the battery is low, sometimes it'll start playing my ring tone full blast. It really sucks to be woken up at midnight by the theme from The Good, The Bad and the Ugly.



To me, it sounds as if there was either a faulty wire in the lamp (they do flicker wildly sometimes) or someone messing with it. This second bit is supported by the fact that this activity seemed to center around the boyfriend.
Out of all the different things that happened, the only two that seem to be out of the ordinary are the lamp flickering and the moving of the blinds (not counting his "possession", which I'll get to in a minute). The lamp I have no idea; it could be faulty wiring, it could have been rigged, it could have been a power surge, whatever. There are too many different things that it could have been to come to any conclusion, especially "ghost". The blinds, however, are pretty simple.
Recall that the blinds only moved after he asked the question. How close was he to the blinds? Did he move at all? How much did the blinds move, and in what way? It is very easy to play a practical joke on someone like this. On the other hand, if the blinds didn't move very much, it's possible that they were moving slightly the entire time and you just hadn't paid any attention beforehand.
The "possession" is much stranger, and much less easily explained. He could have simply been pretending, which is the easiest answer. He could have been pretending and not realized it; as this appears to be the same "George" character from his brother's house, it was probably part of his life for a long time, and he could have convinced himself that George was real and had power - an imaginary friend on steroids. Or, yes, there is always the option that he was possessed, though I don't see any reason to believe as such.

Commander Eagle, thank you for posting all of your skepticism. Because of your questions I have started to do more research and read more about demonic possession and the difference between ghosts and demons. Honestly, I tend to agree with you more now. The more I read on demonic possession, the less I think this is demonic.

Kelly_elly_elly- have you noticed any personality changes in your boyfriend since he was 'taken over'. From what I have read, if it was a demonic possession, it would not last for just those few times but it would start to effect his whole life, changing his personality and such. Here is an article highlighting some of the 'warning signs' or personality changes that can happen if someone is truly possessed by a demon. Please keep in mind though that the website does outline that a lot of times what people thing could be demonic possession really is a mental illness. http://fspp.net/warn%20poss.htm

The reason I brought up poltergeist activity is that it is very possible that your boyfriend has created a poltergeist. This would be why when he said show a sign the blinds moved, and other things happened. He didn't know he was going it, but he subconsciously created it. If I were you I think I would start out trying to debunk what happened. Is there an air vent on the floor by the blinds that could be making it move? Maybe the window is not sealed tight and there was a draft? There could be lost of reasons why this happened. See if you can recreate what happened.

You're welcome. Glad to help.



It would help if there were a consistent definition of what constitutes a demonic possession rather than a ghost. If we're going to take paranormal research seriously, we can't just use vague definitions and opinions as to what constitutes a demon as opposed to a ghost, what demons can do, what ghosts can do, and why different things - such as sage - affect them, if they do at all.



I doubt that this is a real mental illness, unless it happens on a regular basis - and from Kelly's post, I gather that it does not. If it were a pervasive mental condition, it would probably manifest itself multiple times, not just under this one condition.



How does one "create" a poltergeist?



This is always a possibility. However, if we want to propose the idea of a poltergeist effect created through ESP, we must first prove the existence of ESP. We can't assume something as true if it hasn't been proven, or else our entire theory could be faulty.



This is a great idea. Check out your lamp, and see if it's possible to make it do the flickering thing, while you're at it. If it was faulty wiring, you may or may not be able to; if it was a power surge, you probably won't. On the other hand, if it was rigged and hasn't been de-rigged, you should be able to recreate the effect. And juders' list of possible blind-flutter causes is a great place to start.

I agree. The problem is that ghosts and the paranormal have not been proven and there is very little information available (at least online) that defines the difference. Whenever I try to find the difference between ghost possession and demonic possession, it all get categorized under the same thing. If anyone knows of any good books that discuss the matter, I'd be very interested in reading more about it. This is exactly why I don't think it is a demonic possession anymore. If it were, I believe there would be lingering side effects and it would have lasted much longer than a few episodes of him talking. Also, I way just saying that if there was more instances that the ones she mentioned, she should look for personality changes and if there were some not to write it off as demonic possession necessarily, not that I thought he had a mental illness."During a poltergeist experience, the agent, in an attempt to relieve emotional stress, unknowingly causes the physical disturbances using mental forces. The mental mechanism that allows the poltergeist agent to unconsciously cause these physical disturbances is called psychokinesis. Psychokinesis, PK, more commonly known as "mind over matter," is the human ability to mentally affect the physical environment. Because the psychokinetic activity of the poltergeist agent is recurrent and spontaneous, this form of psychokinesis is termed RSPK or recurrent spontaneous psychokinesis. Most agents are unaware that they are causing the physical disturbances, and even those with vague awareness usually have no conscious control over how and when the disturbances will occur."

"With the exception of rare lengthy cases, poltergeist phenomena generally last from two to six weeks (short term 1 week, long term about 18 months). Cases are nearly always reported in homes, offices or workplaces – wherever a dynamic of human interaction takes place. Poltergeist activity, with its connection to unresolved stress, appears to be a rare form of stress relief. Instead of the stress releasing itself in "normal" ways, the agent unconsciously "blows off steam" with the PK activity. Patterns found in the disturbances are generally symbolic and can give clues as to the identity of the agent and the nature of the unresolvedstress. Often object and area focused activity occur whereby the disturbances tend to stay with certain forms of objects or in certain locations in the physical environment. The disturbances often appear as metaphors to the causes of stress. For example, sexual tension may be released through causing the bed to shake. Anger towards a certain person may be released by the agent causing items belonging to the target person to break. The rare outbreak of small fires may be associated with a general release of anger, whereas water is more often associated with grief (as in tears not being physically shed). More unusual cases involving guilt have resulted in the agent actually giving him/herself a psychokinetic "self-beating" displayed by the spontaneous manifestation of bruises or other marks of physical punishment. Other very rare poltergeist cases have involved sightings of apparition-like forms. These are not thought to be true apparitions (or ghosts – a consciousness operating outside of or after the death of his or her physical body). Rather, they are thought to be unconscious projections from the mind of the agent that are "picked up" telepathically by people associated with the agent (and of course, by the agent as well). These apparitional forms are often not human in appearance (in contrast to ghosts), and may even look like an archetypal "monster." As frightening as they may appear, these mental projections are harmless and are simply a reflection of the agent's inner psychological "monsters or demons." As with the physical activity, they are often a metaphor for the mental and emotional stress the agent is experiencing. More subtle forms of poltergeist activity involve micro-effects whereby the agent mentally, though unconsciously, affects the functioning of technology (these are effects that occur throughout our lives). It is now known that technology such as watches, computers, telephones, photocopiers, etc. are apparently susceptible to PK. Similar to the large scale poltergeist effects, these micro-effects appear to be a form of stress-relief or a reflection of the mood of the agent, and the type of effect is often a clue as to the nature of the stress."

Source = http://www.mindreader.com/opi/poltergeists/

Did this answer your question?According to the article I just quoted above, there had been scientific proof of poltergeists.

"Studies have also shown that people with epilepsy or epileptic-like activity in the brain are sometimes associated with poltergeist activity. This does not mean that everyone under stress or with epilepsy will be a poltergeist agent. In fact, the phenomenon is very uncommon, even though minor PK events may occur throughout someone's lifetime. Even in severe cases of repressed stress or epilepsy, poltergeist activity rarely occurs."

Here it talks about 'studies', I am not sure what studies they are referring to, and I think for me to actually prove on this web forum that poltergeists are real would be pretty hard to do, if not impossible, I was simply stating a possibility."The ritual of smudging can be defined as "spiritual house cleaning." The smoke attaches itself to negative energy. As the smoke clears it takes the negative energy with it, releasing it to regenerate into something more positive. Tests have also shown that the smoke of burning sage literally changes the ionazation polarity of the air."
Source=http://www.guidancetochangeyourlife.com/sage.html

Unfortunately, there are very few people who care to take the time to define ghosts and demons in scientific, quantifiable terms, and what few there are tend to contradict each other. If any headway is to be made in this area, we must define the terms involved so that there can be no confusion.



Why would it have left side effects? Does the possessee remember the incident? Do they retain mental scars? Or are these side effects something else?



Yes, I understand. It's good to keep all the possibilities in mind, however unlikely.



What emotions trigger poltergeist activity? How strong are the mental disturbances in relation to the emotions involved - is it a linear or geometric relationship? By what mechanism does the human brain produce this external activity? What centers of the brain are involved?
As a slight aside, "mind over matter" does not mean that the human mind has the ability to affect its surroundings. It is an expression meaning that the human mind can control the body very extensively, such as effectively blocking out pain.



How often does a poltergeist event generally occur? Why can the event not be replicated through conscious effort - a voluntary effort to recreate the emotional state involved?



Why do the cases only last for short lengths of time?



The fact that these cases often have a connection to the emotion involved suggests that their effects are at least partially controlled by the manifester. If this is true, why can the effects not be voluntarily replicated with sufficient effort?



These seem like they would be documented, as mysterious injuries tend to attract attention. Can you post a link to an example of one of these cases?



"It is now known" suggests that it has been proven. Is there a study showing this?



As you can see above, only in a way. It answered my question as to how poltergeist phenomena are believed to arise; however, it raises more questions as to how, if it is true, this functions, why it has such restrictions, and so on.



But the article you linked above does not provide any references for its claims. I can say that there has been a study which proves that I have the ability to perform mind readings. However, unless I actually produce this study, I have not actually given any evidence for the claim.
It's like the electromagnetic hypersensitivity topic that I discussed in another thread. I was unaware that studies had been conducted which proved the existence of (some types) of EMHS. But when the study was produced, I accepted it.



Again, this means nothing unless it actually references the studies.



This is the crux of it. I've been searching for these studies which it claims, and I cannot find them despite quite a bit of work towards that end. It's quite likely that the article's author is simply lying, or passing on a lie which they believe is truth.



Agreed. Between ourselves, we cannot prove that poltergeists exist. We can only use the information which is available. I don't expect you to prove the existence of poltergeists. However, if poltergeists are put forth as the solution, this does raise a lot of questions which need to be answered before it can be accepted.



Which is a good thing. We can't reject the poltergeist theory out of hand.



Why does it cling to negative rather than positive energy? Why is it only sage, rather than another herb? How can you actually know that it is clinging to the negative energy?



To do this, the smoke would have to completely leave the house. In practice, the majority of smoke indoors does not leave. Rather, it is soaked into the walls, floors, ceiling, and furnishings. It seems to me that the burning of sage would, rather than cleansing the house, ingrain the negative energy more deeply.



How does the energy regenerate at all, let alone into something more positive?



This, I am fairly certain, is one hundred percent bunk. Ionization "polarity", I assume, is the electric charge of the molecules in the air. The only way to change this would be to literally change the chemical composition of the air from one compound to another, as different chemical compounds have one set charge. Simply flipping it about would involve a radical rewriting of the laws of chemistry.
But I am willing to accept that I might be wrong. I will do more research on the subject to make sure that I am not mistaken. In the meantime, this raises a few more questions:
Why is sage the only smoke which does this? What does the ionization polarity of the air have to do with spirits? By what mechanism does the sage perform this transformation?
I also notice that this article cites no references for its claims. I will do more research to make sure that I'm not missing something, but I'm under the same impression for this article that I am for the first.

Apparently you weren't listening or reading carefully. I dont know what it is... that is what im trying to figure out. I dont know if its a ghost, it can be something totally opposite. Im not sure why it did what it did. I did not mention anything about an exorcism.I dont see how I could do this anyways. It is no longer in him, this only lasted about 40 min. There have not being anymore issues since that night. That guy that seemed to be an issue is no longer hanging around.

And we're trying to help.



But you're neglecting the possibility that there might not even be an "it".



Again, I didn't say that you had. It was just a figure of speech, meant to convey the fact that I think that you need to be certain that it is a ghost (or other supernatural being) before you go around looking for ghost solutions.

Well you guys might like to know that Kelly has never had an experience of any type of hauntings before, or anything of that nature. Kelly didn't believe in ghost / demons / poltergeist until this day. It was all television made up stuff to her. On this day is the ' rude ' awakening. She simply came to this site to ask for help as to finding out what it could be. She doesn't know what to do, what to think bout this thing. I know she is scared and she is not making anything up. As one of you had said in an earlier post, if she was making this up, why would she take the time to go join a paranormal site and post this long story. Any person who is making something up would know they could be caught in lies, so why would she make a story up knowing people who are more experienced could catch on that its a made up story , if that is what it was. I've been talking to Kelly last few nights, but known her for some time now. She knew I was into the ghost and haunting so she came and asked me what I thought. I lead her to this site and told her to post her story. Other people here could also give her insight as to what it COULD be.
Yes I agree as far as checking everything out before assuming.
However lets say she did check it all out,and nothing could cause any of these things to happen, such as the pan could have been on the back of the stove , how is it just gonna fly off? Was the pan one of those cheap wal-mart pans, or was it a cast iron, was there a window nearby where the wind was blowing that could have caused something to fall and hit the pan just right and make it fall, different things vary as to how ' easy ' it is to fall off. When asking a question to her, we need to be specific, to get specific answers.
Another thing, this guy she spoke of Tim, things were happening when Tim was around. Now Tim isn't there they aren't seeing anything. Could something be following Tim? During this time, when all this was going on, Damon had some light marks on his chest ( i believe ). A ghost doesn't leave marks on you, let alone " abuse " you in ways that it leaves any markings.
There is a difference in ghost / demon / and poltergeist.
A ghost has been defined as the disembodied spirit or soul of a deceased person.
A demon is supernatural being that is generally described as a malevolent spirit.
A poltergeist spirit or ghost that manifests itself by moving and influencing objects, generally in a particular location such as a house or room or place within a house. In other words a noisy spirit.